Post-Intervention Stress Syndrome (P.I.S.S.)

COH & Moderator Joined: Aug 01, 2006 Posts: 474

It seems like the majority of COH have a significant let down after an intervention. It seems like it doesn't matter a whole lot whether the intervention was a complete success, a partial success, or extremely disappointing.

My guess is that the pre-intervention period creates huge amounts of hope, and anticipation, the intervention itself involves incredible amounts of stress trying to keep all the balls in the air and deal with the raw nerves, frayed tempers, etc. No matter the outcome there is a huge let down when it is all over.

It can take weeks, and sometimes longer to get through. I think it could be a very good resource to have some of the people coming off of interventions sort of keep a diary of sorts here. We could offer our own experiences and see if there is any consistency. It might be helpful for COH that are preparing for their first intervention to know that this is a normal reaction.

Believe me, I know that what I am suggesting is not easy, and it is obviously completely voluntary and NO-GUILT if you aren't ready or can't do it. I'll sick the COHUGET on you!!! I'm not kidding!!!! Okay, yes I am.....sort of.

I will post my recollections of cleanouts I and II in the next day or two, but I have moved down the line a little, so it may not be as useful as I would hope, cince it isn't as fresh. I have only recently realized that I am beginning to "come out of it", so this idea is only now taking shape.

Blessings to you all, and maybe we can squeeze some extra "goodness" out of the tough times we have just been through.

Thanks!
norse
C.R.A.P.P.Y.

COH & Moderator Joined: Aug 01, 2006 Posts: 474

The acronym was an accident, but I love it!!!!!

Post-Intervention Stress Symdrome a.k.a. PISS

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:58 pm Post subject: great idea!

This is such a good idea, Norse... I'll contribute what I can...

It's funny, just today I was bouncing around old posts (trying to find something that someone asked about on another forum) and I was reminded of how MUCH I was writing here in anticipation of my intervention with my mom this past April. You are so right that there is such anxiety and anticipation and hopeful tension before the event.

I know that I've read or heard people suggest that our interest in cleaning is an inappropriate obsession with CONTROL, like we're trying to impose our own will on the hoarder and that's unrealistic. In the days and weeks leading up to our family's intervention, I was brimming with hope not because I thought we would just stomp all her hoarding issues once and for all-- I was full of hope because I thought to myself, "If we've clearly invested THIS much thought and time and effort and WORK into her house, surely she will recognize that we care about her and stop and think about WHY we did it." You HAVE to hold on to hopes like that, otherwise how could you find the strength to kill yourself on these tasks of cleaning up? But of course, it is unrealistic and doesn't turn out that way (or didn't for us, anyway).

I know that this might be different for other people (whose parents have moved more recently), but in my case, the cleaning up was a lot more stressful than I expected simply because I was tackling the house where I was born, where I spent my entire childhood. Every single day, I was driving back and forth to the house (never EVER stay at the house where you are cleaning unless you have a death wish) and my route took me right past my old high school. YIKES. Every day I drove by that school remembering the absolute WORST years of living with that hoard, and it felt surreal to be FINALLY wiping so much of that mess away. Obviously, the mess is just a symbol of so much else that was wrong in our house, but it was still really upsetting... like, cleaning the house NOW when I am 32 is so meaningless compared to how much it would have meant to me when I was 15 and feeling so worthless, like such a FREAK, terrified of having friends who might catch a glimpse of it.

I've been home four or five times since that big cleanup week and though the house is finally halfway presentable (more importantly, SAFE) on one floor, it is such a pyrrhic victory. What does it even matter anymore? Mom is pissed off and probably just waiting for my father to die so we won't have any more excuses to interfere with her life. She is so BITTER. I call her now and she just sighs pathetically, wanting so desperately to be the victim. We were supposed to feel sorry for her when she complained about how hard she worked to clear a path in the living room so we could visit... we bust our humps working 14 hours days for a solid week and she is STILL the victim. There is no way to prepare yourself for that. You're killing yourself and I don't know how you ever completely let go of the wishful thought, "COME ON, she MUST recognize how hard we've worked, what this represents in terms of our TIME..." She won't.... they won't... the hoarder just WON'T and that's a fact.

Others will surely write this too, but the fixation on RIDICULOUS objects lost is just unbearable after a cleanup... We left my mother with a very organized set of shelving (eight giant rolling bakers racks) stacked with meticulously sorted and labelled plastic tubs FULL of all the stupid crap she hasn't touched in twenty or thirty or FORTY years. There was ZERO appreciation for that, she barely glanced at it. For the last four months, she has been fixated on the same two or three objects that were more likely to have been thrown away. I guess recently she decided that those complaints were getting stale, so she's coming up with NEW objects to fixate on. This is even more frustrating, because in four months time she has trashed the basement and those many shelves we bought, built and filled are now INACCESSIBLE. I have conversations with her where she brings up objects lost and all I can say is, "Well, you could have found them before, but now YOU've buried them, so that's not OUR fault."

I'll write more another time... this is a really good topic :-)

Elizabeth

COH & Moderator Joined: Aug 01, 2006 Posts: 474

With my mom, this last clean out was in two phases. Clean out #1 occured when someone (either a neighbor or a home health care nurse) called the state and reported her. She accused me of doing it and said that if I was the one, I'd better get up there and help clean up. I told her I wasn't and I didn't know who did, but I'd come up and help out.

By the time I got there, she had decided that someone in the neighborhood had turned her in. If someone in the neighborhood was that "mean" she didn't want to be in that neighborhood anymore. So the clean out turned into a "find a retirement center", "clean out the house enough to get the furniture out", and "get her moved out". Well, we did get it all done.

By the time I got home, I was financially devastated,physically exhausted, as emotionally empty as I had ever been, and mentally barely capable of logical thought. The lack of logical thought part was especially problematic since I am a UNIX systems administrator and my career depends on my logic skills.

For the first three days at work, I was basically shell shocked. I was capable of handling questions and that was about it. Creating plans and following through on them was out of the question. Emotional closeness with Nashbabe was beyond my capacity too.

Sleep was hard to come by, and when I did sleep, I had bad dreams involving the grossest parts of the clean out. The worst part was that I didn't know how long it might last. After three days there was no change, and I started getting scared that I wasn't healing.

By Thursday I began to get back to normal, but it was a very slow process, day to day I didn't seem to make much progress but compared to a couple of days earlier, I thought I was doing a little better.

Mother was pretty upset when she saw the 8 foot tall dumpster. By the time we were done and the house was still a mess, and the dumpster was mostly full. She started getting really antsy about what we had thrown out.

There was no gratitude about dropping everything, driving 800 miles each way, giving up vacation time, paying for the moving truck, buying for cleaning supplies, buying all fresh linens for her apartment, buying her mini-fridge, stocked the mini-fridge. In fact it was more like anger.

I kept joking with people saying, "Daddy, daddy! Get the bad pictures out of my head!!!" Only it wasn't a joke. I just wanted to start feeling again. The numbness lasted a couple of weeks, and it got really scary for me.

COH & ACOA Joined: Jul 22, 2006 Posts: 2032 Location: Cabo

I_did_not_know this was here!
What a great thread Norse!! P.I.S.S. toooooo funny!!

Dear Boss,
I'm sorry I couldn't come to work yesterday, I was suffering from PISS. I'm sure you understand.
:)
***

I remember Norse when you came back, and you did sound very very effected by it all, my friend. I will never forget your post, something like "You MEAN I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE??? Others understand??!!!" or something like that. I'm so glad you found us back then (and are still here)! I also remember you saying how foggy you were at work, having trouble thinking....sleeping. You really did sound like you had PTSD.

Elizabeth, yes, you sure did your due diligence on preparing for your mom's clean out ...right down to getting the scrapbook pages ready for before and after pictures...ordering the videos to watch right before she saw the house...setting up a therapist for after-care for your mom after making sure they "knew something" about hoarding...going to the library and copying a million medical journal pages on hoarding to educate your siblings....even making a key chain with rational thought cards on it for your mom to use while out (shopping?). Weren't you also trying to dream up a collage on easels or something???
Yep, I'd say you did everything you could.

How much did these dumpsters cost you guys btw?

I just came back from trying to help my mom move from her hoarded apartment to her hoarded house across the street from it. The goal was to put things from on the floor in the apartment, in those rubber containers with lids and then write on the lid what's in there in permanent marker. So, things were gathered up from the piles on the floors, into the containers and put in front of my mom who had to SEE everything in there, piece by tiny piece, before it could be taken over to be stored at the house or to the garage at the house.

Sounds pretty easy, doesn't it? Well, I'll start by saying the first day I was there in her apartment, I just stood there like a googin while my sister did most of the work. I was in shock really, at seeing the amount of things everywhere....realizing that this.is.how.my.mother.lives....everyday.
She lives amongst these piles, she navigates this stuff every day in her life, this depressing environment-and it's ok with her. To see her medicine bottles sticking out from under the couch mixed in with magazines, wrapping paper, clothes, cat toys... To see important things-paperwork-tax records, in a bag with Womans World magazines and trinkets and what nots. To see the way things are stacked and her intense desire that nothing is disrupted.... It all just takes a little bit of time to adjust to if you have been away from it for a year like I had been. To see how difficult just answering the phone is (which is on the floor nested in things, for her. It's difficult to see a parent age and get feeble, but slap hoarding with it, tougher.

It's familar, yes, but I can't help but feel I am a failure in some way, that my mom lives like this. Yes, yes, my rational mind tells me it's not my fault, she has an illness, but the emotional mind feels so bad...and then anger! Anger that she won't let us help her more. Oh, there's just a lot that goes through my mind. Then, since I don't live there, I think: Why don't the others that DO come help her more??? But the longer I was there I realized that it is definitely not that easy. She won't LET you help, unless it is on her terms and she has total control. I was there a mere 2 1/2 weeks-if I was there all the time I would probably have to become numb. Well, I sort of did at times during this trip.

Anyway, this gathering of things to move occurred while my mom, the hoarder, participated. The things had to be put in containers, easy enough. Nope. The whole time are the questions on
"where did you go and put ---"
"Have you seen my...."
"Now right here I had a ***, do you know what you did with it?"
"Now, now-don't go and ruin that, don't put anything on top of that, that's important"...
"oh, give that thing to me, I'll take it right here, I want to do something with that, I want to give that to so and so"
or the desperation pleas of "oh nooo....for years, YEARS, I had it right here and now it's moved. You went and moved it on me and now it's gone. Oh, for years I was so careful to always have it here".... etc. and so on.

So you have to stop what you are doing, put it down to go address these concerns or you act like you don't hear them which doesn't always work when you are in the same room. OR you have to stop the physically taxing thing you are doing to look at an "important" photograph.

Anyway, so the containers got filled (but not all the stuff on the floors was done while I was there), but when she "went through them" most of the things got pulled out, rescued, in a circle around her and taken out of the container. Then the process repeated itself over and over. I saw the insanity of it, but didn't say anything...we were going through the MOTIONS, but nothing was really getting accomplished. However, lots of stuff got put in the containers and stacked up out of her walking areas "to go through later". She now has some clear floor at her apartment in the living room (I even vacuumed some of the carpet!) and kitchen and she called me and was so pleased that she had my bro and his father in at the same time and they both were sitting on folding chairs. Incidently, that brother is a hoarder and so is his father, according to my mom. However, this ex-husband of my mom's is remarried and his wife forbids the hoard from entering their home, it must be kept to the garage and other areas and I guess he is able to do that. Does that then make him just a Packrat? Oh I don't know, I can't worry about him....

The same things happened over at the house, trying to clear the kitchen and living room there. However, my mom was able to let a lot more things STAY in the containers that my brother brought up to the 2nd floor of the garage. I can see the living room and kitchen being livable pretty easily-it's all the other rooms that will be a challenge. The plan is that they will make a plywood ramp from the windows on the 2nd floor and slide the stuff out the window, down the ramp. But then where does it go? This is to make room for the things at the apartment.

Well, anyway-I'm sure I'll write more here, but I just wanted to say that the constant BLAMING, trying to make it YOUR fault something is "missing" "gone" "misplaced"...it wears on you. Not just the accusation, but the tone of voice, so accusatory-it is something else. It really effects me. I remember that tone-from all the time growing up, being accused of stealing something.

One day I was sitting on the stairs on the porch to my mom's house taking a break (where the gross cat dishes are and where they throw up all the time because they are so old) and my mom's two cats came up and I watched them mill around the driveway and I just stared at them in a daze for a long time and I thought-cats. Cats are next I bet.

But I realized that I can't help my mom. I can't fix my mom. She needs help beyond what I can do for her. There was so much build up, 7 months of talking to her about hoarding on the phone, me and my sister Lisa showing her things...then I got there and saw the circle of things around where she sits and inability to part with anything and the very very strong refusal that she needs any outside help/therapy because "she knows what she needs to do and is just disorganized and isn't going to shell out money for someone to tell her what she already knows".

So what do you do? She is in control and quite honestly I don't know WHAT to do. Keep sending her info. on hoarding hoping she will heal herself enough through reading on her own to get her back to the house and save money and address her health issues? I just don't know what to do to help her.

Well, if I did anything while I was there,it was give her some motivation to go through some containers, motivated one of my brothers to get there and help with me "while I was visiting" and I left knowing that she has clear pathways in her apartment. They may not be like that now, after 1 1/2 wks, but I hope so. My mom says I helped her so much. I don't know how in the world I did, but knowing she has some clear paths at BOTH places actually is a relief. She may not get back over to the house, who knows. I would prefer she stayed at the apartment because there is no threat of mold there, there is a shower she can walk INto, rather than a tub that is hard for her to get into...and SELL the house which is a really in bad shape anyway. Even though it's the childhood home, I wouldn't be sad in the least to see it go-but she would be and it would never happen because it's filled and she'd have to SEE everything. ugh.

Sorry about the length of this....
:)

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:34 pm Post subject:

The dumpsters were around $300 each and we got three. And we got a work crew to help clean out the basement to avoid the home buyer's threat of lowering the amount they were willing to pay for the house.

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:09 pm Post subject: PTSD not even an intervention

I don't know if anyone remembers but I flew up to see my parents in March to tell my mom about a counselor who specialized in hoarding in her area. I helped my mom learn a little more about selling things on eBay (I told her I would never ever teacher how to bid or buy on eBay). I even went to therapy with them. I spent days showing them videos on hoarding, looking at website and literature, and it all culminated in my dad saying to the therapist that he would not help my mom see the hoarding specialist and that he didn't want anything to change. Then he got in the car and asked my mom for a "financial divorce". He was NOT being helpful. I went home and went into a depression of sorts. For weeks I was sad and had bad dreams. I even talked to a counselor about it and she said, "You are grieving. You are grieving the loss of hope that you can fix your parents. You can't fix them. They choose to live the way they do and because they are still functional adults you can't make those choices for them. It's sad, and you will be sad for awhile. But it's not your fault, and it's natural to grieve."

I concsiously didn't clean while I was on that trip. I think I would have been happier had I been cleaning. But instead, I faced the sad situation that they live they way they choose and not even my dad wants to change, with no distractions. It was hard.

It's hard to face my own problems. That I often put my parents first, before myself. That I feel guilty if I can't fix them or save them. That I love them, but can't be as close to them as I'd like because their living conditions get in the way. These kinds of realizations take grief work, and support. It takes time to get through, like PTSD.

Holly
"W.H.A.T.? -D'oh!" ("What the Hell Are THESE?" --Daughter of Hoarder)

COH & Moderator Joined: Aug 01, 2006 Posts: 474

That guilt you feel is exactly why the COHUGET was brought into existence. We COH tend to carry much more than our share of responsibility for the situation our parents place themselves into.

Many COH have or are victims of Emotional Incest. It, like hoarding, isn't well known, but I think many COH can relate to the descriptions since our hoarders tend to blame everyone but themselves for the mess. It might be worth googling for. I can suggest some other resources if you want to investigate more.

Back to the guilt...... Coming to terms with the guilt that we feel can be very difficult for some of us, and others sort of have an epiphany of understanding and walk away from it.

Realization the hoarders have abused us and that it wasn't our fault is the first step. Have you noticed the box at the bottom of the left column entitled "COH PLEASE KNOW THIS". It's there because most of us need that consistent reminder. "Oh yeah, I didn't cause this, and it isn't my fault if I try to help and it doesn't get better."

There are so many parellels to Children of Alcoholics or other addicts.

It hurts to deal with the Unhealthy Guilt, but it is good to deal with it too.

Blessings!
norse
C.R.A.P.P.Y.

COH & Moderator Joined: Aug 01, 2006 Posts: 474

In posting about the importance of this thread and encouraging some others to post about their experience, I began to remember to feeling of those first few days back more vividly than I have. The memories had faded but maybe I am ready to deal with them because it was almost like I was there again for a few minutes. BTW, it still sucked!!!

My recollection is that all the normal thought patterns of my brain had shut down. It was like being in a room where there is always a fan going, and then the fan stops. The silence was deafening. The inability to self-generate any thoughts at all was terrifying. I could solve complex problems when given them, but my brain was not willing to risk independant thought and it scared the crap out of me. The fear was that my "self" was dead, and I didn't know if it would ever return. The intellectual part of me was there and able to function normally. But the part of me that included my essence (my drive, my humor, my personality, my soul (if you will) was in shock. Either that part of me was in a coma, or it was hiding so deep inside me that I couldn't feel it at all.

What am I if all the emotion and feeling doesn't exist? Has "me" been injured or amputated? I was completely empty, and dark inside. If I had thought to shout a thought into my head, it would echo for all eternity.

"Can someone reboot me?" I felt like a computer that was hung. I just got to a command that I didn't know what to do with. I couldn't process the command, and I couldn't go on with anything else until I did.

That is the best I can explain it right now. If you end up there post de-hoard, try to remember that it's okay. You're healing, and I can tell you that it will get better in time. Let us know if you can. Even if all you can do is leave a post that says, "PISS, be back soon", we'll know what you mean. You are healing inside and that is good. We'll wait together and have a party when the real "you" gets back!

norse
C.R.A.P.P.Y.

COH & ACOA Joined: Jul 22, 2006 Posts: 2032 Location: Cabo

PISS...be back soon....

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:00 am Post subject: COHUGET and PISS

I know that feeling you described, Norse. Like there's so much information, history, overresponsibility surrounding you that "you" go numb and almost cease to exist.

I think that feeling is part of why it was so hard as a new adult (about 18-23) to know who I really was, or what I would do "when I grow up", because as long as I lived in that mess and was in the grip of its emotional effects -- my identity was on the back burner.

When I was out in the world (at school, at a job), I felt like a fake. But the person I was in my parents' house wasn't "me" either. It took several years of being on my own to feel like I knew myself at all.

I think this is kind of part of the PISS syndrome, too. Plus that it is just so incomprehensible to think that all that stuff, in life-threatening teetering piles, was/is somehow a *comfort* to my mom's disordered brain -- it only causes mine to short circuit! It is best to be back in my own environment for a while, to have some "me" time, in order to remember who I am!

What would that be called -- "crapnesia"?

And thank you for pointing out the "COH PLEASE KNOW THIS". I hadn't noticed it and it is right-on for checking the guilt syndrome.

holly

Valued Member Joined: Jul 30, 2006 Posts: 6

I can so very much relate to all here. I haven't done the full intervention by any means, but I did have to de-crapify her kitchen in order to get some new working appliances in there. She'd been washing her clothes for almost a year by stomping on them in the bathtub because she wouldn't/couldn't let a repair man in.

The images still haunt me even now. There was the area with the cat litter boxes where the area around the boxes had litter as high as in the boxes from it being kicked out by the cats and they began to used what they'd kicked out. In the boxes it was almost solid caked urine and surrounding it cat feces and urine in four inches worth of litter over a space probably eight square feet. I cleaned that, to the floor, and mopped it. My mother said "thanks". There were more horrors in that kitchen, some that almost made me vomit, but I didn't. But I cleaned as much as I could to clear a clean path for the old appliances to be taken out and the new brought in. I couldn't and wasn't able to clean enough to make it look even close to normal. Then there was the humiliation and the apologizing to the delivery men before they went in...saying it's not mine, I'm just helping, she's been sick. Yeah.

There's the massive amount of worked involved, the nastiness of it, and that the parent doesn't even GET IT. My mother says "Thanks" like I just gave her a nice Christmas card. The point where I think something snapped in my brain was when I'd spent hours vacuuming the little paths clear of dead insects and filth to the best I could. She was sitting down and I was drenched in sweat taking a break, and she said "quick, catch the remote it's going to fall". This was a tv remote for some television probably rarely watched halfway on a table....it was two feet away from her. It was too much trouble for her to reach for it herself.

So yeah...this thread stirs stuff up. I'd been promising myself lately that I wouldn't think about this stuff so much. I've been getting pretty upset and depressed about it. Still it felt right to express these things here where I know you guys would understand.

Norse, that numb feeling with your "self" gone. That is known as depersonalization - very serious. It happens when the mind can no longer cope with what is happening. I've had this happen and it is pretty scary. The self can't endure so it exits. It is a testament to how extreme what you were dealing with was. One thing that helps to undo it faster is to get physical, connect with your body as much as possible.

I think one of the hardest parts for me in making peace with my mother's illnesses is that she'll never really know, never truly recognize what I've given or what it has cost me. The rational part of my brain says, "She's mentally ill, not capable of comprehending, it's not realistic." and yet that is cold, cold comfort.

COH & Moderator Joined: Aug 01, 2006 Posts: 474

http://www.anxietyandstress.com/sys-tmpl/posttraumaticresponses/

In response to bobbledboo's comment about de-personalization I started to do a little research and much of what I found didn't really fit. Lots of marijuana references. But I did find the above reference that seemed to describe my feeling really well.

The best part to me, is that there is an assurance that the feelings I had were normal and I wasn't losing my grip on reality.

Interventions can be brutal. It's okay to struggle with the result.

norse
C.R.A.P.P.Y.

Valued Member Joined: Jul 30, 2006 Posts: 6

That notification feature is pretty cool. Perhaps dissocation might be more the fit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociation

Good link Norse, I can definitely relate to those PTSD symptoms about certain life events. I actually got rather upset after posting in this thread over thinking about how much we sacrifice in the name of love, duty, and decency.

Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:33 pm Post subject:

My post traumatic stress continues regarding my MIL.

I keep thinking, "how dare you not show some kind of respect or gratitude for us pulling your a$$ out of the fire?"

"How dare you go out to eat all the time, buy wine, cheese, gourmet coffee, books, etc. but not bother to even buy my hubby a card for his birthday?" All along whining about how she can't afford to buy him a gift. She has plenty of ability to go out and buy stuff for herself.

Many times I don't even consider her my husband's mother. I don't know who she is, but she obviously does not care about us in the least. I know that's harsh, but after everything we have done for her especially in the last year, to be met with such lack of interest or thanks is ridiculous.

Sorry, that's how I feel. I only do what I do for her because it is the right thing to do, not because she deserves it. Arrgh. I've never had a problem with my blood pressure until this year.

COH & ACOA Joined: Jul 22, 2006 Posts: 2032 Location: Cabo

Something I was reading about emotional abuse here: http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/verbal_emotional_abuse/110026
Seemed like a good time to paste some of it here. Not sure if all will apply to others, but maybe a thing or two will ring familiar:

Covert or Controlling Abuse

Abuse is almost entirely about control . It is often a primitive and immature reaction to life circumstances in which the abuser (usually in his childhood) was rendered helpless. It is about re-exerting one's identity, re-establishing predictability, mastering the environment - human and physical.

The bulk of abusive behaviours can be traced to this panicky reaction to the remote potential for loss of control. Many abusers are hypochondriacs (and difficult patients) because they are afraid to lose control over their body, its looks and its proper functioning. They are obsessive-compulsive in an effort to subdue their physical habitat and render it foreseeable. They stalk people and harass them as a means of "being in touch" - another form of control.

To the abuser, nothing exists outside himself. Meaningful others are extensions, internal, assimilated, objects - not external ones. Thus, losing control over a significant other - is equivalent to losing control of a limb, or of one's brain. It is terrifying.

Independent or disobedient people evoke in the abuser the realization that something is wrong with his worldview, that he is not the centre of the world or its cause and that he cannot control what, to him, are internal representations.

COH & ACOA Joined: Jul 22, 2006 Posts: 2032 Location: Cabo

If you are just coming off of a clean-out and you just want to zone out, go to the below site and just stare at the dot in the middle and you may just get into a zone where you forget all about what you just went through!
?

http://www.coverpop.com/whitney/index.php?var=v0

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 8:25 pm Post subject:

well, after this thread being dormant for a year, i sure hope its not too bothersome for some folks to be dragged back into something they had hoped they had let go of... thanks much to norse for letting me know about P.I.S.S. ...

our intervention is ongoing... the cleaning out and up etc... the outbursts of, "how can she live like this!?", aren't as frequent anymore... we return home during a quiet 45 minute drive, take our showers, have a bite to eat, all the while just not wanting to talk about it and escape watching some hockey...
but, after a day or so of not wanting to talk about it, returned calls from a social worker or therapist brings us back to the task we have chosen...

anyway....

pardon me for not directly quoting, as i'm typing off the cuff, but, its true, hoarders will never accept that there is a problem; will choose a pile of junk over one of their kids any day; and will continue to play the victim...

well... tuff...

MIL is out of the house and never to return.... FIL is not the victim of his stronger willed wife as i had assumed for 30 yrs... he chose to walk away and do nothing... he chose to join his wife in abandoning their 3 daughters to the hoard...

the intervention will progress until things are made right, and as was said here, not b/c they deserve it, but b/c its the right thing to do...

emotionally we're both resilient people supported by our faiths and strong and supportive love for each other... we may be going thru hell right now, but as long as we keep going we'll come out the other side in fairly good shape...

thanks Donna for the "zone out" site ... being an old hippie, it was great to watch it while trippin on some antacid ..

Be Well

COH & ACOA Joined: Jul 22, 2006 Posts: 2032 Location: Cabo

Quote:

emotionally we're both resilient people supported by our faiths and strong and supportive love for each other... we may be going thru hell right now, but as long as we keep going we'll come out the other side in fairly good shape...

I know I don't really know you, but from the sounds of it, I believe you definitely will UUJohn.

What you are going through sounds just horrible. My heart really goes out to you all. But, like you said, you WILL get through this. You will, you will, you will.

This particular thread might have had any action in a year, but PISS is all around us, all the time. I guess we just haven't been talking about it at this particular spot. If I got ambitious one day and got together all the stories, you wouldn't have enough time between cleanings to read them!

Not last summer, but the summer before, I tried to help my mom for 2 1/2 weeks and it did not go well at all. When I got back, I had major PISS going on and norse encouraged me to write about it...I couldn't even start to do that for 2 months.

I was in a fog, a complete daze for those 2 months. Very, very confused. Couldn't think clearly. Was just "going through the motions." It took me a looooong time to get back to earth. I started to keep a journal back then, after finally heeding norse's advice to write about it.

I just went back to that journal to see what I could copy and paste here to share with you,....but it was so depressing and long, long, long-that I will spare you. (your lucky day!) Oh no no no

Just know, if you are feeling "not yourself" and just really confused wondering what that heck is going on...you are not alone.
I was also, very, very very very angry--- and probably best not to post all that stuff here right now. I was also in mourning. I was a lot of things .
Maybe you and your wife and her sisters are that right now too. You will get through this.

Norse and his wife (who sound very much like you and yours) helped me get through it so much, I will never forget it, they were a blessing.

So UUJohn, I have no great advice, but understand what you are going through in part, and wanted you to know there are people out there who really do "get it" and are rooting for you guys.

Donna

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject:

A lot of good stuff in here.

COH & Moderator Joined: Aug 01, 2006 Posts: 474

Bumping for bb143.

Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:22 pm Post subject:

>>>pardon me for not directly quoting, as i'm typing off the cuff, but, its true, hoarders will never accept that there is a problem; will choose a pile of junk over one of their kids any day; and will continue to play the victim...<<<

Wow. That's what gets to me, the parents choosing their junk over their children. It's so hard to understand. I suppose it's like a drug addict or alcoholic choosing their drug over their children. Their needs come first. I SOOOO hate that. WHY do these people have children if they can never put the needs of a child first????

>>>well... tuff...

MIL is out of the house and never to return.... FIL is not the victim of his stronger willed wife as i had assumed for 30 yrs... he chose to walk away and do nothing... he chose to join his wife in abandoning their 3 daughters to the hoard...<<<<

Agreed. FIL is just as responsible for neglecting the needs of the children and putting his wife's desire to hoard over the needs and wants of the children. SHAME on both of them!!!

One has to wonder why such people choose to have children, knowing the mess they are bringing them into, and knowing that mom-hoarder's wants to live like this will always take precedence over the children's needs for normalcy.

COH & ACOA Joined: Jul 22, 2006 Posts: 2032 Location: Cabo

Janie:

Quote:

One has to wonder why such people choose to have children, knowing the mess they are bringing them into, and knowing that mom-hoarder's wants to live like this will always take precedence over the children's needs for normalcy.

Janie,
I think many times, spouses aren't aware of the problem besides a little bit of clutter in the early days of the marriage, since this seems to be a progressive thing that gets worse over time/seems to get kick-started many times by traumatic life events.

My dad was like Felix Unger from the Odd Couple-I don't think he would have chosen this life for himself or his children on purpose, had he known how bad it was going to get.
?
Donna

Active Member Joined: Apr 29, 2008 Posts: 418

Re: Why hoarders have children, lol, I was the fourth child of a woman who wanted to have lots of everything including children. Taking care of them, the animals, the plants, the stacks of papers, etc. took more time than she could ever have. As a result, I have one child, one dog, a few plants because I am so worried that they will not get enough attention and time. I learned to be independent at a very early age, and had a caring father who was more supportive, but didn't want to make waves for good reason. I learned that to show that I was affected gave her power, so I ignored her stubborn stances, silences, and stayed out of the house as much as possible. Giving a hoarder power is what they crave. If they "help" you sort stuff they will take all your time and nothing will be accomplished. We would do a sweep of clearing every so often and then brace ourselves until she calmed down.

Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:54 am Post subject:

(Thanks for putting it back up with a sticky)