COH: Repeating Group Topics

Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD)

We'd discussed it a bit before, but I just thought I'd throw some
info into the "causes of hoarding discussion" about Attention Deficit
(Hyperactivity) Disorder. I don't think ADD (or ADHD if you prefer)
is the sole cause of hoarding, but lots of the traits could contribute to it. Since I was diagnosed with ADHD--inattentive type, I can see how my attributes, taken to the extreme, could contribute to hoarding. For those who are new to the discussion, ADD does not necessarily involve hyperactivity, and usually doesn't "go away" in adulthood. Recently there are lots of people, especially women, who are being diagnosed as adults (if you're not hyperactive, and not a "problem" and are smart enough to compensate, you're not going to
get diagnosed). Do you know anyone who's smart but just can't seem to "get it together"? It could be ADD. Here are the traits I think
are relevant (not an exhaustive list):

Organizational/attention problems:
*being easily distracted from a task, lesson, or conversation
*difficulty keeping the mind on any one thing
*getting bored with a task before it's completed
*difficulty listening when directly addressed
*disorganization and forgetfulness
*needs high stimulation in order to focus (sometimes manifests as a
feeling of needing "more more more!")

Yet:
*Ability to hyperfocus on a project to the exclusion of everything
else

Impulsivity problems:
*talk excessively
*blurt out answers before questions are completed
*speak tactlessly or inappropriately
*exhibit difficulty waiting
*interrupt or intrude on others

Poor executive function (this is the big one!):
*poor sense of time and timing
*inconsistency
*low boiling point for frustration
*poor judgment

The traits I've noticed in myself that contribute to my own clutter
issues (which thankfully are minimal) are 1) inability to deal with
decisions that aren't of the "right now" variety--if I don't know
what do with a piece of paper immediately (if I don't already have a
file for it, or it's a "someday" thing), it goes into one of many
piles. I immediately forget about the pile! Churn the piles and
remove everything that is out of date. Repeat. 2) inability to gauge
time or to be able to tell how long it will take me to do something--
I'll get around to doing that project "someday" 3) lots of ideas but
not following through on them--The hardest thing for me to let go if
are things that are for "someday" projects 4) a complete hatred of
routine tasks--in my case it's doing my dishes. It's not even
conscious. But given the choice between doing the same old thing or
doing something new and exciting, I'll choose doing the new thing
most of the time unless under threat (like someone is coming over).
Oh no, another whole day has gone by while I was happily engaged
doing some silly project, and now it's time to go to bed! Believe or
not, this is different from laziness!

I have a good friend who has ADD and he is a good coach. I tell him
about the crap I'm hanging onto for future craft projects and he
says "you won't do them". "But maybe I will?!" "No, trust me, you
won't." And he's right, of course. People with ADD often
aren't "living up to their potential", and sometimes those undone
projects represent that potential. I think throwing stuff out is like
losing a piece of your potential--sometimes your *potential* worth is
all you have going for you if you're not feeling very worthy in the
present.

Luckily (?), my brand of impulsivity leads me to do rash things like
throw away/give away half my possessions at a time, so I don't end up like Mom (see the pics in my folder if you want to know why). I've
thrown away all my high school yearbooks, my high school diploma, all the letters I ever received, etc.

Self-centeredness and an inability to read social cues are also ADD
traits, unfortunately. Like many of your Moms, (it's mostly Moms,
isn't it?) mine interrupts me as if I'm not even saying anything
important, doesn't know me and doesn't seem to care, monologues about crap only she is interested in, can't read body language (Mom, that person is trying to back away from you because they can tell you're bat$#@* crazy and don't want to hear about your cats), etc.
Embarrassingly, I also interrupt, go off on tangents, fail to listen,
etc., but at least I remember to get back to the subject at hand, ask
the other person questions about themself, to repeat the parts I
missed, write down important info, etc. But somehow in my Mom the
inattention has turned into full-blown narcissism so I think there is
also a personality disorder at work there. Just my theory.

Sorry if you feel like the guinea pigs for my ADD-Awareness Soapbox, but like the study of hoarding, this and other neurological disorders are a very new field. (I have a feeling they will eventually learn that all this stuff is strongly intertwined.) Take what you can use, or ignore it all!

Here's one of many websites about it:

http://www.helpguide.org/mental/adhd_add_adult_symptoms.htm

Self-centeredly, ramblingly, tangentially, but unapologetically (for
the long post), :)

Cassandra

Those with hoarding tendencies:
Some sections from Overcoming Compulsive Hoarding book & exercises from it.

Thank you to the member here who sent this information to me to post!:
an excerpt from OnlineOrganizing newsletter:

GIFTS

If a gift giver gives you a gift FREELY, then it belongs to you and only you. You can do with it whatever you want! It's yours; you own it now. It's now your property! But on the other hand, if the gift giver gives you a gift with STRINGS attached, then they really didn't give you a gift. You know your gift has strings attached if the gift giver:

*Instead of a gift, they've given you fear, guilt, and a BURDEN that you must keep their gift, carry it around, and display it. Many fear they must hang onto gifts given to them. Even if never used. Even if they don't like it. Even if it doesn't fit their needs. Fearing by giving it away they will betray the gift giver. Oh the POWER they have over you.

You are in CONTROL of your life now! You get to decide and take responsibility for your actions. Not the people that might have done you an injustice. Not the people that couldn't give you what you wanted or needed. Not the people that might have given you too much or too little. Not the people that have hurt you in some way. If you feel you are lacking something in your life then just visit any shelter, without judgment, and just see what lack really is. What do you have that you can give to others?

Once you start releasing (giving) the things that might be causing your pain, anxiety, or sorrow then get ready to start receiving (getting) the things you really need, want, or have been dreaming or wishing for. The Universe is very powerful and will quickly REPLACE the things in your life that you've let go of freely with those of your true needs or desires. Victim of something -- probably. FREEDOM to change and make choices -- absolutely!

Choosing A New Response
Common Fears Everyone has fears-it is a natural part of being human. Fear can protect us from harm by sending a rush of adrenaline to help us physically deal with potential danger. But there are times when fear may keep us from participating fully in life. Once we realize that fear is a state of mind, we can choose to face our fears, change our minds, and create the life we want to live.

Our minds are powerful tools to be used by our higher selves; like computers, storing and using data to make certain connections between thought and response. We have the ability to observe these and choose differently. No matter where the fear came from, we can create new connections by choosing new thoughts. When our souls and minds are in alignment, we create a new experience of reality. This journey requires many small steps, as well as patience and courage through the process. Here's an example: You decide to overcome your fear of driving on the freeway.

Your plan of action starts with examining your thoughts and finding a new way of seeing the situation. When you're ready, you enlist a calm companion to support you as you take the first step of merging into the slow lane and using the first exit. Your heart may be racing, but your confidence will be boosted by the accomplishment. Repeat this until you are comfortable, with or without help, and then drive one exit further. When you are ready, you can try driving in the middle lane, for longer periods each time, until you find yourself going where you want to go. This gradual process is similar for conquering any fear, but if you find it overwhelming, you can always seek the help of a professional. You may think that you are the only one with a particular fear, that nobody else could possibly be scared of ordinary things such as water, heights, public speaking, or flying. These types of fears are very common, and you can have great success overcoming them.

Remember, it is not the absence of the fear but the courage to take action anyway that determines success. When we learn to face our fears, we learn to observe our thoughts and feelings but not be ruled by them. Instead we choose how to shape the lives we want.

"I MIGHT NEED IT LATER"
One question you might ask yourself is, "What do people who don't hoard do when they need something?" The answer is probably that they go to the shops to buy the item—or to a friend or relation to borrow the item—at the point in time when they need it.

They don't stockpile goods as if they were a hardware store in case they need a 3/8" Phillips head self-tapping screw at some point in the future—when they need such a screw they toddle off to the hardware
store and buy it.

"I MIGHT NOT REMEMBER"
an event or something of sentimental value
Journals and photographs hold on to your memoriesYou can keep your memories in a journal. Instead of keeping objects as mementos and souvenirs, preserve the past in a book. You can journal your way out of "squalor." Record your memories, hopes, thoughts and dreams in words and pictures, rather than building piles as dusty monuments to your sentimental side.

Sometimes a bulky item holds a special memory, perhaps because your child created it. Consider photographing it. Some cameras even date photographs automatically. You can preserve the memory in an album or photo box, without keeping the item itself.

E-SAVE
If you're attempting to keep and manage all the information you acquire, consider this:

Don't stockpile books, magazines, newspapers, recipes and articles in case you might use them one day. Use libraries and the Internet to retrieve information as and when you need it.

I MIGHT THROW SOMETHING AWAY OF MONETARY VALUE
I might feel distressed or upset The thought of throwing things away might be worse than actually
doing it. It might not feel as bad as you think, and the bad feeling might not last as long as you think.

IF I WASTE THINGS, SOMETHING BAD WILL HAPPEN
Sharing: dispersal instead of disposal: If you have difficulty discarding - if you can't let go of objects without anxiety, start slowly and gently. Try sharing or giving away to charities rather than throwing things away.

It gets easier with time and practice. How do you feel one minute after letting go of something? How do you feel 24 hours later? Have you given up anything of real value? How regretful do you feel? Can
you tolerate this feeling until it goes away? Is there another way to think about this?

Trust that your future needs will be provided for. Take note of every time you let go of something, and disaster doesn't occur.

E.R.P.
Exposure & Response/Ritual Prevention: A type of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy that is designed to break two types of associations that occur in OCD: The association between objects and situations that cause distress, the association between carrying out ritualistic behavior to decrease distress. A method of therapy for treating Hoarding.

The goal is to demonstrate we can have thoughts and experience distress without participating in rituals (rituals are "banned" for full immersion in anxiety)without losing control or "having to shut anxiety down." This is to show rituals are short term anxiety relievers that in fact increase obsessions, and that rituals are not the only way to decrease anxiety.

Exposure
A procedure in which you are purposely confronted with objects or situations that promote distress and stay in those situations without performing rituals ("banned")long enough for anxiety to decrease by itself.

Initially I was concerned about some of the guilt that various people in the group were experiencing. It seemed like it wasn't really guilt that they had done anything to deserve, so this post was the result:

Pain is nature's way of telling people that whatever they just did is not something that they should repeat. Healthy guilt is a good thing, especially if I am listening to my inner voice. The majority of people have a problem with not feeling guilty often enough, especially in this day and age of "You don't have any right to judge me."

COH on the other hand have a tendancy to have the opposite problem. Because our hoarders frequently blame us for their problems (see above paragraph), we often accept that blame because.... Well, let's face it, we didn't have the tools emotionally to reply back that the problem wasn't that we weren't doing enough around the house. We were dependant on our parents for survival and we didn't really have any other option other than accepting the guilt.

Well, I am writing today on behalf of the COH Unhealthy Guilt Erradication team. I have very good news for everyone here at COH. Today and tomorrow are officially "No Unhealthy Guilt for All COH members" weekend. Now since many of us struggle with knowing whether a specific guilty feeling is healthy or not, I will provide a list of healthy versus unhealthy guilt.

Healthy Guilt
-Murder
-Hurting animals intentionally(except for recognized pests)
-Child abuse
-Setting off nuclear weapons

Unhealthy Guilt
-Not knowing what to do in regard to our hoarder
-Finding humor in the situation our hoarders have put us in
-Telling our hoarder how they have affected us
-Not telling our hoarder how they have affected us
-Calling the state to report our hoarders
-Not calling the state to report our hoarders
-Cleaning out the hoard without their knowledge or permission
-Not cleaning out the hoard

For the rest of the weekend, you don't have to feel guilty. You have done the best job you knew how to. Venting your feelings here any way that helps you (sarcasm, laughter, ranting, anger, etc..) is a very good thing. There is no better or safer place to do that. We have been beatup, injured, and yes abused by our hoarders. Read that last line again. Your emotions are okay, whatever they are.

Enjoy the weekend. Your hoarder and your guilt will be there Monday, unless this is a massive cleanout weekend for you, and you probably won't be reading this anyway. For those who are doing clean outs this weekend, the next 4 days after the cleanout are your No Unhealthy Guilt days (You deserve the double days).

Now, take the guilt off and put it down someplace out of the way. The back of the coat closet, or under the kitchen sink are two suggestions. There doesn't that feel better? Enjoy!!-norse

That seemed to strike a chord with people so I decided it needed an acronym because the full name was too much to type over and over. So COHUGET was launched....... From now until the end of the weekend, the COHUGET (pronounced co- huge-tee) has declared a "No Unhealthy Guilt" warning. This is a warning, not a watch.

That means that you need to stash your unhealthy guilt now and leave it stashed until Monday morning. The previous stash sites are acceptable (under the kitchen sink, behind the fridge), but the recommended unhealthy guilt stashing site is under the nearest pile of dog excrement. The nastier the better, that way you will be much less inclined to retrieve it before Monday morning. Notice that I did not say "your dogs....".

The ownership of the dog is irreverent. NO WAIT!!!! I am irreverent. The ownership of the dog is irrelevant. We hope you enjoy the weekend free of the burden of the guilt that you should never have been given. It wasn't your fault, it isn't your fault, and it never will be your fault! -norse

P.I.S.S.
Post Intervention Stress Sydrome
Refers to the emotions felt, similar to PTSD, after an intervention or clean-out, whether successful or not.

Created by norse:
Wed Aug 30, 2006
"It seems like the majority of COH have a significant let down after an intervention. It seems like it doesn't matter a whole lot whether the intervention was a complete success, a partial success, or extremely disappointing.

My guess is that the pre-intervention period creates huge amounts of hope, and anticipation, the intervention itself involves incredible amounts of stress trying to keep all the balls in the air and deal with the raw nerves, frayed tempers, etc. No matter the outcome there is a huge let down when it is all over.

It can take weeks, and sometimes longer to get through. I think it could be a very good resource to have some of the people coming off of interventions sort of keep a diary of sorts here. We could offer our own experiences and see if there is any consistency. It might be helpful for COH that are preparing for their first intervention to know that this is a normal reaction.
-norse

PS: The acronym was an accident, but I love it!!!!!Post-Intervention Stress Syndrome a.k.a. PISS.HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA"

What is *your* definition of the "Wonderful Stranger" we talk about? I was hoping everyone could send in their interpretation. That way, when new people join, they can say "MY HOARDING PARENT DOES THAT TOO!" Like we know they probably will! Thanks.-Donna

Quote: My definition, Wonderful Stranger=
A non family member of a Hoarder whose opinions, advice and suggestions are valued above the family. WS's can have very limited contact with the Hoarder, but they way they are described by Hoarder they sound like close, personal, loving friends. WS's are not allowed to see the ugly side of the Hoarding life, only what the Hoarder chooses to present to them and have them believe. WS's can =bank tellers, grocery store clerks, lunch ladies who are never invited in and couldn't tell you Hoarder's favorite color or where Hoarder grew up, school chums from 60 years ago that have never even sent a Cmas card, etc-Donna.

Quote: My definition of a wonderful stranger:
A person, usually of the opposite sex, often works in sales, who flatters or otherwise gives attention in a way that makes the hoarder think the wonderful stranger is the nicest, most decent person in the world. They are considered to have the best advice (that trumps anything that family would say), and they are the only person who really gets the hoarder, according to the hoarder. This is typically all in the hoarders head, and based purely on surface conversation.

They frequently have been known less than a year (if not less than a week). Once they are known better, they cease to be wonderful strangers and frequently there is a rift. Example: My mother decided one year that my brother and I should have the exact same plaid shirt from the Gap, because a nice young man from a house-painting company that made a sales call had the same shirt and he was cute. I did not like the shirt and neither did my brother. Personal banker is another one I can think of that my mother tells all about her personal life. Does not seem to get that this person (and other wonderful strangers) are trying to make money off of her, which is why they listen and smile. In fact, she may be on to this fact, but does not want to admit it to herself.-PaperMonster

Quote: Elizabeth
The Wonderful Strangers are the ones who know nothing about the hoarder's behavior in his/her own home, know nothing about the physical environment the hoarder has forced on family members, and know nothing about the hoarder's problems in close family relationships. In short, the Wonderful Stranger knows nothing at all, but the hoarder recognizes that this lack of knowledge gives the WS a very special perspective, unbiased and unprejudiced. The WS is like a plane hovering high in the sky, not close enough to see any details, so every house and car on the ground look about the same. The WS is a big comfort to hoarders, who sometimes wish that everyone was so far away and distant that they couldn't see the mess, couldn't see how troubled the hoarder really is. The thoughts and opinions of close family members can never compete with those of a WS... the WS can be trusted much more than the close family members (who are too obsessed with and distracted by the hoarding problem to have any valid ideas)-Elizabeth

Quote: From Gwyneth:
Donna wrote: "WS's are not allowed to see the ugly side of the Hoarding life, only what the Hoarder chooses to present to > them and have them believe. "

I'd change "ugly side of the Hoarding life" to something like 'a balanced view of, or real story behind, the hoarder's life, living conditions or family relationships' because the problem isn't just seeing the hoard itself, it's that the hoarder turns these wonderful strangers into enablers who support the hoarder in his/her misinterpretation of reality. Otherwise, great job!

I'd also put in that the problem may be worst with the ones who get paid--accountants, lawyers, insurance agents--which can create amazingly difficult situations, both because of the confidential nature of that kind of transaction, and the real-world implications of the hoarder getting advice that is either inept or based solely on the distorted reality the hoarder presents.

Quote: From nashbabe:
I agree. "Wonderful Strangers" can be benign, but they can also be predatory. I am tired of the salesperson at the flower shop who obviously has endeared themselves to my MIL so she is spending hundreds on fresh flowers each month because she wants them around. Never mind that she cannot even come close to affording them. I am tired of the insurance agent who has called us twice in the last 24 hours feigning a service mentality when in reality he hasn't been in touch for eons and only now sees an opportunity to get some more of her business. I'm sure she "loves" him. She was crushed when she learned her auto insurance agency had been purchased by another company and the agents were all let go. She couldn't believe the agent never contacted her because "she loves me." Riiiiiiight.

And I'm REALLY tired of predatory telemarketers who continue to get my MIL to buy hundreds of bucks of stuff she doesn't need (who the heck needs thirty 7-year lightbulbs for $200-plus in a two room apartment?). I'm sure the telemarketers put on their best friendly chatty tone with her. What kills me is she won't answer the phone when we call, by and large, but she is obviously taking these telemarketing calls. WSs either don't know and interact with the hoarder, or know and have to hide it in order to make money off of the hoarder. If a WS ever becomes more than just a business relationship, they may get to know what is really going on, confront the hoarder, and get the boot from the hoarder's life. That has happened to my MIL on several occasions.

Quote: From Cassandra:
My mom's Wonderful Strangers are mostly bus drivers, a few baristas, Safeway clerks and book and record store owners--a mostly male captive audience with whom she gets to chat in short installments. Of the ones I've met, they do seem like good, kind, decent people. People who are patient with her monologues and her obsessions with cats and music and too polite to put her off. (One of these people is a friend of my brother's and he said to her "Well, Mom may be crazy, but she hides it pretty well." Response: silence and a shake of the head. "Maybe a little?" "Nope." "Can she hide it at all?" "Nope, she's definitely crazy.") I would not call any of these people "friends". Yet she gushes about them in way I've never heard her do with her own family. Some of them really are lonely and appreciate the attention Mom gives them. If you have a "theme", such as "cats" or "trains" or "The Beatles", she will buy you things relating to that theme. Yet she cannot fathom what members of her own family might like as gifts (because we are assertive enough to say when we don't like something, which makes us ungrateful).

She is prepared to sell her house to one of these people, without checking in with her family, and I suspect he may be taking advantage of her. She has given my phone number to one of these people, whom she had just met, because he said he was looking for a girlfriend. (This is the same mother who was convinced we would be axe-murdered at summer camp or snatched by a stranger with candy off the street.) So, to sum up: Nice, polite people who haven't yet crossed her mental, emotional or physical boundaries, and who may know she's a little "off" but don't know just how squalid her living conditions are. People who may believe all the negative things she says about her family, and whose advice she trusts without question. Helpful if handsome and male, though there is no romantic fantasy involved. Her family should be prepared to hear the entire life story of various WS's, tales about their children and pets, career highlights, etc. while at the same time the hoarder will not be able to remember the family member's favorite color, names of best friends, college major, etc.

Quote: From Janice:
A Wonderful Stranger is a person who needs help. The hoarder can help him/her and seem like a martyr, spending all her free time on the w.s., not on herself. Little does the w.s. know that he/she is being used as an excuse for the squalor to increase due to neglect. The w.s. will never see the home and and is often disabled or house-bound. It helps if the w.s. has an emotional problem and feels bad about themselves and would never guess that the hoarder has bigger problems.

Quote: From Tawnya:
For my mom, a wonderful stranger is someone who knows her only superficially, but they validate her self-worth. I don't know how many times I heard of the people at the nursing care facility, "They JUST LOVE me here." The opinions of wonderful strangers are more highly valued than those of real authorities, if it is something my mom would prefer to hear. i.e. "The nurse said I don't have to use my walker all the time, as long as I'm careful," when the physical therapist has said *always* use the walker.

Quote: From Tracy:
This is what drove me nuts about my mother. God forbid if some stranger who doesn't even know you says something nice. But nevermind your family all stressed out about the way you live because we love you and want better for you. We are just STRESSING YOU OUT. I felt like saying to my Mom several times GET A GRIP WOMAN, normal people don't live this way and if these people knew how you lived they would lose respect for you. ARG!

W.U.E.D.
"Walls up, Expectations Down", term created by norse/nash about being careful not to get hopes up.

Adult Children of Alcoholic's Characteristics (ACOA) & Roles
The following information came from here (pdf file)

Many non-ACoAs find that the following descriptions also fit them.
The traumas of living with emotionally absent or abusive parents manifest themselves in many ways. An alcoholic family is but one form the problem can take.

Suggestions for ACOAs:(or other adult children of dysfunction)

*Become involved in Alanon and/or Adult Children of Alcoholics meetings, and in individual therapy. By doing this, you will learn:
you are not alone in your pain; and you can learn ways to move beyond the harm you experienced as a child. (If you are concerned that you cannot afford individual counseling, check with local clergy
as many offer counseling services. There are also mental health or treatment providers who offer their services based on income levels.) Your mental health is priceless. You owe it to yourself to seek options for becoming healthy.

*Develop support systems by making those close to you aware of your decision to seek counseling. (Alanon or ACoA groups and counselors will help to provide such a system of support.) Share your decision with friends and family members who will encourage you. Do not share your decision with people who will question you or belittle your decision.

*Learn how to ask for help. (If you go to an Alanon or ACoA group, counselors and fellow ACoAs can help you learn this. In time, you will learn whom you can trust with your struggles.)

*Recognize that you have the right to talk about these issues and you have the right to experience and express emotions.

*If you have children, learn about child development. Seek out and participate in a parent education course to learn skills for relating to your children.

*Check with your local public library for books on this topic to help you understand and overcome a chaotic childhood.

*Finally, know that as an adult, you have survived a childhood that was affected by alcoholism and now you can thrive. It won't be easy, but it will be worth the effort. As the old truism notes, "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." Start today. Take that life-changing step!
-------------------------------------
Notes:

(1) If you feel that your life is described by these characteristics, please know that you are not alone. Help is available.

(2) This list of characteristics should be read as descriptions, and not as indictments. Initially, ACoAs may see these characteristics as deficits and liabilities.

However, with time and healing, they can become assets. By making changes in their lives, ACoAs can break the cycle of destruction caused by alcoholism (or similar dysfunction) so that their children will not have to experience the same problems and pain.

Characteristics of Adult Children of Alcoholics

When growing up, children of alcoholics learn several basic family survival tactics: don't talk, don't trust and don't feel. A commonly asked question is, "Can a person ever outgrow the effects of growing up as the child of an alcoholic?" The answer is yes, but it is not easy.

Adults who survived a childhood environment where an alcoholic was in residence may continue to experience problems unless they make some life changes. Adult children of alcoholics need to accept the fact that their parent's alcohol abuse negatively affected not only their childhood, but also their adult years. Many adult children of alcoholics continue to support the "don't talk" rule and deny that there were problems in the homes of their youth.

Others might admit that they lived in a chaotic home, but argue that it no longer affects them.
This is rarely true. In his book, A Primer on Adult Children of Alcoholics, Dr. Timmen L. Cermak lists sixteen characteristics that adult children of alcoholics (ACoAs) frequently display. In brief, these characteristics are:

*Fear of losing control.
ACoAs maintain control of their feelings and behavior. In addition,
they try to control the feelings and behavior of others. They do not do this to hurt themselves or others, but because they are afraid. They fear their lives will get worse if they lose control and they become uncomfortable and anxious when they cannot control situations, feelings and behaviors.

*Fear of feelings.
Since childhood and continuing as adults, ACoAs have buried their feelings
(especially anger and sadness). In addition, they've lost the ability to feel or express emotions freely. Eventually they fear all intense feelings, even good ones such as joy and happiness.

*Overdeveloped sense of responsibility.
ACoAs are hypersensitive to the needs of others.
Their self-esteem comes from how others view them. They have a compulsive need to be perfect.

*Guilt feelings.
When ACoAs stand up for themselves instead of giving in to others, they feel guilty. They usually sacrifice their own needs in an effort to be "responsible."

*Inability to relax/let go/have fun.
Having fun is stressful for ACoAs, especially when others are watching. The child inside is terrified; exercising all the control it can muster to be good enough just to survive. Under such rigid control, spontaneity suffers.

*Harsh, even fierce, self-criticism.
ACoAs have very low self-esteem, regardless how competent they may be in many areas.

*Denial. Whenever ACoAs feel threatened, their tendency toward denial intensifies.

*Difficulty with intimate relationships.
To ACoAs, intimacy equates to being out of control.
It requires love for self and expressing one's own needs. As a result, ACoAs frequently have difficulty with sexuality. They repeat unsuccessful relationship patterns.

*Living life as a victim.
ACoAs may be either aggressive or passive victims. They are often attracted to other "victims" in love, friendship and work relationships.

*Compulsive behavior.
ACoAs may work compulsively, eat compulsively, become addicted to
a relationship or behave in other compulsive ways. ACoAs may drink compulsively and become alcoholics themselves.

*Tendency to confuse love and pity.
Because they don't differentiate between these two emotions, ACoAs often "love" people they can pity and rescue.

*Fear of abandonment.
In order not to experience the pain of abandonment, ACoAs will do
anything to hold on to a relationship.

*Tendency to view issues in terms of black or white.
When they are under stress, the gray areas of life disappear and ACoAs see themselves facing an endless series of either/or alternatives.

*Tendency toward physical complaints.
ACoAs suffer higher rates of stress related illnesses (migraine headaches, ulcers, eczema, irritable bowel syndrome, etc.) than the general population.

Books:
Adult Children of Alcoholics: Expanded Edition. By Janet Woititz. (HCI Publishers, 1990.)

Healthy Parenting: An Empowering Guide for Adult Children. Edited by Janet Geringer Woititz, Ed.D. (Fireside Books, 1992.)

Websites:
http://www.adultchildren.org
http://www.nacoa.org/

Posted: Feb 1st, 2007
"My heart still leaps into my chest when the doorbell rings.
Is everything put away? Is there anything the person can see that might embarrass me? Is there dust or dirt somewhere that someone can see? Will they think I'm lazy?

I am NOT one to blame other people for my problems (I'd like to think I succeed in spite of them), but being the daughter of a hoarder and having an ex-husband who said I was lazy all the time just tag-teamed my self-esteem. I suppose I have set extremely high standards for myself and work almost TOO hard to attain them. I am scared, though, that if I let up I will become like my mom. "

Feb 1st, 2007

"I am trying VERY hard to get over the panic of having people over. I look for opportunities to host things, volunteer my house for group activities (the kind of things that bounce around, taking turns hosting) because I feel like it's the OPPOSITE of everything my mother did when I was growing up. I only started doing this in the last couple years, though, since we bought a house and I feel like we have a reasonable amount of space to be comfortable. I have the 'never good enough' phobia about my house and here, I apply it not just to my housekeeping (which is horrible by normal standards... nothing like hoarding, but just plain messy) but the house generally."

Posted: Feb 3rd, 2007

"Oh ya, doorbell dread, as I have dubbed it.
While I don't have any logical reason for it now, it is always there, no matter if my house is spotless, which only happens when we are expecting company. But if I am realistic about it, my house is never so bad I would die a thousand deaths if someone came over unexpectedly. If anything, it tends to get cluttered with things that need to be put away or straightened up.

I had extreme paranoia when I was growing up that someone important would find out about the house and take my sister and I away from my parents. In all reality, this probably wouldn't have happened. My dad could have taken us out of the environment if called on the carpet, and I had lots of relatives as well. But as a kid, these things don't always have logic. So that is probably the origin of my pit of your stomach gut reaction. So while mentally I know it is dumb, I can't get over the knee-jerk reaction."

Feb 5th, 2007
"I had no tricks at all, because our washer and dryer had been dead for years and by about the 3rd or 4th grade or so, we had no running water, either. We went to a laundrymat periodically (and collected water there, too), but I don't think we went often enough. I was in constant terror the whole time we were there that someone who knew me would see me filling plastic bottles with water and loading them into the trunk of the car.

Yeah, it all really went to hell in the 5th grade. I am sure the smell was pretty bad. I was used to it, of course, but my classmates weren't and, kids being kids, they weren't exactly tactful about it. Two incidents really stand out in my mind. The first was the time a girl who sat behind me in a class got up and went to the teacher to ask (loudly enough for the whole class to hear) if she could please sit somewhere else because I smelled. The second was the time another girl made a big production in gym class (in front of half the grade) of presenting me with a bar of soap and some deodorant. They all got a good laugh out of that one. "

"People didn't make fun of me because of how I dressed so much but some people said we were "weird" and it was common knowledge that people didn't come into our house. Looking back I can chuckle with warped humor at all the rumors that went around about us when I was a kid. My favorite was the one that my mom was a witch and we kept the curtains closed so no one could see what she was doing in there. I used to think if only she WERE a witch so she could conjure a spell to get rid of all that junk and give us a nice house!! "

Feb 2007
Subject: [COH] Setting Boundaries
-sigh- So I'm conflicted about this whole business of confronting the hoarder and TELLING a totally oblivious and insensitive person that they are hurting feelings. It seems like fitting a square peg in a round hole to interact with them in a NORMAL way, pretending that they might actually adjust their behavior (or express remorse).
Elizabeth

I can understand why you are conflicted. Setting boundaries isn't about confrontation. While I realize your mom won't want to hear it, and may even ignore the comment, but she will HEAR it.

The beauty about setting boundaries is that if, for example, you say, "mom, when you say _____ I feel _____" If you don't want to go the feelings route (and I admit, I am not a touchy feely person), then you could just say, "if you can't say something nice, constructive, or whatever, then please don't say anything." If she continues, then that is the hard part... then you need to figure out what you are really willing to do.

If you are on the phone, and this may be the easiest way to start this type of conversation, then you can say, "since you continue to keep saying negative things about (how I am raising my kids, how I keep house, about my husband or whatever), mom, I am hanging up", and then hang up. You can keep putting up boundaries. You don't need to justify them, and you don't need to get into a "confrontation" . If she raises the volume, again, you can say, Mom, if you can't speak to me in a normal voice, then I am hanging up." Etc.

I know it isn't easy, but really it is somewhat like dealing with small children. If you don't stop pulling your sister's hair you will get a time out...lol. If only you could give your mom a time out :) This kind of thing gets easier with practice and really can be used in life in general. If others are used to taking advantage of you or whatever, they will be unhappy that you put up boundaries. This shouldn't stop you, though. I did this with both my sister and my mom. With my mom it improved our relationship, with my sister is pretty much destroyed it, but in reality, our relationship was only about her anyway. This is a great topic for us all because when you grow up with hoarders, the only boundaries that are valid in the household are theirs. No one else is allowed to have them, so we don't learn to do this as children, and often don't even realize we can as adults. It isn't easy, at all, but it is worth it to try, no matter how small the victories are.
-Jeanne

Recently, we completed a cleanout of my mother's 1 1/2 BR apartment - we threw out 20 cubic yards of garbage.

Bio-Recovery was absolutely fantastic (877-246-2532, www.biorecovery.com) - very professional, finished on time, and under budget. I highly recommend them to this group.

I met with five different companies before selecting Bio-recovery. Below are my thoughts/opinions on these firms. Note I am listing these from best to worst, but in my opinion, there was a big gap between 1 and 2, and a huge gap between 2 and 3.

The range of estimates was $3300 (excluding dumpster) to $9200. In general, I was surprised by the variability in costs and the poor quality of the wording of the contracts (my wife is an attorney). All of the principals would have been onsite during the cleanup. I do believe that some of these firms were trying to take advantage of a very emotional situation

1. Bio-Recovery (est $5500, actual cost $4800)
- Showed up within a few hours of my call to do a free estimate
- Met own deadline for hardcopy of estimate
- Contract looked out for interests of everyone involved; amenable to clarifying in writing some terms of contract
- No payment until end of job
- Incredibly efficient and professional - fantastic attitude made it easier on me and my mom

2. A Touch of Sass ($3300 excluding dumpster)
- Provided estimate as promised
- Fewest man hours required - with a boss who I believe could have executed well
- Least expensive option
- Could provide ongoing cleaning
- However, could not provide dumpster - I wanted the contractor to be responsible for everything end-to-end

3. ServPro ($~9K)
- Provided estimate as promised on time
- Responsive to questions
- By far - largest number of man hours required and most expensive
- Had said it was their slow time of year and could start immediately
- I believe they were padding the bill with underutilized people (8
men the first day?!?)

4. Spring Cleaning (~$6500)
- Provided estimate as promised
- Assertive about winning business (returned calls promptly, etc)
- Poorly worded contract - but was willing to rework into something that made sense
- Ability to provide ongoing cleaning
- Wanted 100% payment up front - no flexibility vis a vis credit card, escrow, etc

5. Disaster Masters (~$8K plus the estimate fee)
- Charged $250 just to do an estimate
- Missed four of their own deadlines for preparing the bid causing my mom a great deal of anxiety
- Unresponsive to eMails and voice mails
- Changed timing estimate from three - four days to two - three days without explanation - why can you do this faster? Impression was they were going to understaff the job
- Did not provide detailed breakdown of manhours, etc
- Called for a deposit to be made by me into a Bank of America account - i.,e. find a B of A and deposit a check into his account
- Methodical approach to sorting salvage, donatable, and trash

Bobby: "Psssst. Don't tell anyone. It's our secret! There's an elephant in the living room, but we're pretending it's not really there and it's not really an elephant."

Sounds pretty silly, doesn't it? Ignoring an elephant in the living room. How could anyone ignore an elephant in the living room?

Just think for a minute what it would be like. An elephant would take up most of the room. It would be difficult to see the television, out the windows, or each other.

Carrying on a conversation with an elephant in the living room would be tricky. And think what an elephant could do to the carpet! If the floor would even hold it, that is. And if it didn't rear up and knock a hole in the roof.

How can you think of much else except how to clean up the mess the elephant makes? What do you do when company comes -- put a doily on it? How can you even have a telephone conversation when there's an elephant trumpeting in the living room? And how do you convince the children, your friends, your family, and yourself there's not an elephant there?

Okay, so no sane person would have an elephant in their living room.

But, now think about living with alcoholism (hoarding) in the home... isn't it just like having an elephant in the living room? Try as you may, it won't be ignored. It continues to make messes, continues to dominate the house, and continues to drive you crazy despite all your best efforts to ignore it.

The elephant's there. It's real and it's not going away. So why tell the children it's a secret? Alcoholism (hoarding) screws children up. Lying about it makes it worse.

Admitting the elephant is there is what we in recovery call getting out of denial.

Admitting we're powerless over it and need help can start us on the road to recovery.

Instead of it being the end of the world, acknowledging the elephant is often the beginning of a new life.

And, ironically, once you admit the elephant is real, you'll probably discover everyone around already knows about it anyway.

Posted: Feb 14th, 2007

"And, ironically, once you admit the elephant is real, you'll probably discover everyone around already knows about it anyway...

"For me that was the hardest part. I didn't WANT anyone to know and it was very difficult for me to discuss this with my significant other and my children. Granted, the discussions went very well, but it was that FEAR that I would somehow be guilty by association or judged because of my parents (mom) that paralyzed me. Think about it. The media and general public do this all the time (i.e "How could the family let her live like that," or "Why didn't they help her before the situation reached this point?") like we condone it or something. "

From member, Gwyneth:
"I collected some of the observations I've made about guilt over the years and condensed them...and at the end is what I called a printable, wallet-sized list.

First, if your parent is a typical emotion-based hoarder (not just an ADHD mess maven), and you are a typical COH, you will ALWAYS carry the potential for feeling guilty. That's because just as the hoarder never has enough stuff, there's never enough anybody can do for him or her.

S/he feels entitled to an infinite amount of your attention, time, energy, labor, and resources. There's some kind of advanced calculus formula for this sort of thing in exploding matter, but the point
for us is that if you give them X, they will always expect X + 1, with that turning into the new X.

Consequently, if you are not a socio/psychopath without a conscience and no regard for others, you will always feel deficient. But you may be looking at the wrong side of the equation.

It's the hoarder's expectations that are infinite, and nobody on earth can ever meet them. Since it's a normal human thing to feel bad if we do not fulfill our parent's expectations, it's almost inevitable to get trapped between the 'normal' child reaction and the definitely abnormal parental expectation.

Plus, if you're still listening to outsiders' opinions, based on more normal family reactions and not at all on the hoarder family dynamics, your guilt tends to grow and grow. Try to forget these opinions unless they come from a professional counselor or psychiatrist who is treating you. All they do is complicate things and make it even harder to determine what's reasonable to do for the hoarder and what's unreasonable.

(This applies to both positive and negative opinions, by the way...somebody saying, "you're doing too much" is just as much clutter as somebody saying "you're not doing enough". If you can't tell and need an honest, objective opinion, get one from your own counselor or psychiatrist.)

Remember, in most COH situations, the very fact that you feel guilt pretty much means you don't have anything to feel guilty about. Feeling guilt means you have a functioning feeling system...that you are not a narcissist focused on your needs alone...that you are not a socio/psychopath or borderline.

This is not to say that it's ok to delude yourself or to provide an excuse for our own unreasonable actions. The point is that there is a line somewhere between the hoarder's abusing you and you abusing the hoarder, and it's up to you to determine what it is, because in the hoarder's mind that line is drawn
all the way towards him or her.

(As you try to determine this line, bump it a little towards the hoarder, just to compensate for the fact that humans are never objective about themselves...this will help you know that your line really is reasonable, and even a little more than reasonable.)

It might help to apply the golden rule or mentally reverse the situation or think of an analogy in a totally different situation. As I explained to my youngest sister during one discussion about what was reasonable for our mom to expect, and what wasn't...it's like being a bridesmaid. You don't mind paying for the dress, or taking several paid vacation days. You don't really mind paying for a present. You mind a little more paying for the hotel room. and a little more than that the extra two days you have to take off because of the strange schedule. But when the bride expects you to take another two unpaid days off, just so you can fly on the airline in which she owns stock, that is too much."

If the hoarder never feels s/he has enough stuff,
s/he will never feel you have done enough.

Don't go by outside opinions, unless offered by a professional who is treating YOU.

There is a line somewhere; requests or expectations below that line are acceptable, and above that line, unacceptable.

11/15/07
In spite of it all, I turned out very well adjusted. BUT I don't want to risk projecting my neuroses and issues on a child - I don't feel qualified to have children, and thankfully never had the ticking biological clock effect that EVERYONE insisted I would ("You'll change your mind, you'll want kids someday" Not true!)

11/13/07
Then, the latest hit me yesterday: I've always had this feeling like I've ALREADY been a parent, so the thought of becoming one is an exhausting one. I'd always thought that this feeling of deja vu came
from parenting my mom (who, in contrast to many stories I've read on this site, hasn't really needed much parenting, actually). Yesterday, it dawned on me: It's been the parenting of myself that's been exhausting me!

Helping the COH sites stay online (Yahoo Group is free to have)

COH Bookstore, where most of the books have been recommended by our group members (Categories: Understanding Hoarding/COH Healing/ADD & more)

Donations

Crap To Buy (link pending)
Like COH & COHUGET (COH Unhealthy Guilt Erradication Team) & "Rip The Giftwrap!" hats to wear, and WUED t-shirts for when you are crisis cleaning. :)

See the information below (I had to deal with this once, too). When you can get a word in edgewise, ask for the address of their agency. When you get it, write a quick letter and send it by registered mail, with tracking. This letter should state they do not have permission to call you and must continue all communication in writing. As it says in point five below, they legally must stop calling you if you ask them to stop in writing. It doesn't stop the underlying problem, but it stops the harassing phone calls....

This Act governs the practices of collection agencies in their attempts to collect debts. Here is a summary list of some of the practices which are regulated:

(1) Debt collectors must provide written notices of the amount of the debt and name of the creditor within 5 days of the original communication.
(2) They must notify the debtor that he has the right to dispute the debt within 30 days or it is assumed to be valid.
(3) They must provide a copy of a judgment if there is one and the name and address of the original creditor.
(4) Each communication must contain the notice that any information obtained will be used for collection
purposes.
(5) They must cease communication if asked to do so in writing.

The debt collector cannot:
- communicate at any unusual time or place without permission from the creditor;
- contact the debtor if he is represented by an attorney and can contact the attorney;
- contact the debtor at his/her place of employment if the employer prohibits it;
- state to any third person that the debtor owes a debt;
- communicate by postcard;
- use any language or symbol on the outside of an envelope which indicates that the debt is owed, or
- harass the debtor.

Information To Gather On Our Parents To Have On-Hand
From members of the Group: (since this stuff takes a while to find...)

Deed to the house - My moms was on a shelf in her closet. It was easy to find since all her clothes were rotting in a big pile on the floor.

From a member:
"The Senior Organizer", the one I bought for a fellow COH was in paperback form. You have to scroll down a little bit to see the cover.*I am in no way endorsing this product or company, just letting you all know that it's out there.
-------------------------------
From a member:
Just want to add a few things and elaborate on others. I know you listed "Banking Info," but it goes beyond knowing where your parents currently do their banking. Try to find out where else they may have accounts. (I've been my mother's legal guardian for 6 months, and I just now found out that she has another passbook savings account, at a different bank, with $6,000 in it; the account was inactive and was close to being turned over to the government. It was sort of a fluke that I found out about it.)

Also try to find out where their 401K plans and/or retirement/pension plans are administered, and what the account numbers are for those. In addition, you'll want to know the life insurance policy numbers and amounts. (Even if you don't need them because your parent is still living, they are considered an asset if they have cash value and you'll need to include them in things like reports to the court if you file for guardianship, financial aid, etc.)

You really need to know at which banks your parents have safe deposit boxes, and where the keys to those boxes are. (People do forget that they have safe deposit boxes when they change banks.) I had to pay $75 per box to have the locks drilled on my mom's boxes because we had no idea where to find the keys. (Banks don't like to drill locks, either; mine gave me a hard time.)

You should also know who the beneficiaries are on your parents' various policies. This is a sore point with me because my mom made my brother the beneficiary on all her policies and left me (and her only grandchild) out in the cold. I had no idea about this till after I became her guardian. It can't be modified now because it's outside the scope of what a guardian can do without the permission of the court. Your parents may not want to tell you who their beneficiaries are, but it should be listed on the policies,
so if you have copies of those then you'll be able to determine this yourself.

You may also want to know what your parents' income is. I needed to know that to determine what services my mom qualified for, and I had no idea. She's retired, and I knew she received Social Security, but I didn't know the amount or whether she had a pension or any "widow's" income from my dad, or anything else. I was totally in the dark. (If you can get a copy of last year's tax return, that info should be listed.)

One more thing: along with car title and driver's license info, you'll want a copy of their registration.--JerseyGirl

I missed yesterday's Oprah, which I guess focused on the "before" conditions and the start of clean-up efforts.

Today is mainly showing and re-showing the shock that the couple felt at seeing everything, and the giddy girlish happiness that the wife especially is feeling at the aftermath.

I liked Peter Walsh much more than I expected, and quickly came to dislike Oprah, and her smug and patronizing attitude towards the entire group, more than I'd expected.

I hope I'm not the only one cynical and jaded enough to feel this show didn't do any real lasting good for anyone but Lowe's and GE and Broyhill.

Did anyone else catch the disbelieving and angry look the daughter gave at one point? Did anyone else recognize the husband as the just-as-guilty co-dependent?

He reminded me of my father. When Daddy had the chance to clean Mom's 60-year hoard [when she was hospitalized] one of the last things he tackled was his 15-year hoard of bank statements and
credit card offers.

Turns out he'd been putting off getting rid of them because he'd wanted them individually destroyed, and his shredder only handled six pages at a time.

Oh well, if the show gets a few new folks here on this site, and they learn to better understand and really help their hoarders, I guess it was a good thing.

I know I was disappointed, thinking about that poor woman trying to fit her compulsion in with all that new crisp furniture. If she fails again, she'll be crushed. And think of the looks her kids will give her then.

Right back at you! I am watching it right now and I am so infuriated that I had to pause it to post here--

Oprah actually ASKED Peter Walsh the question: "So are most hoarders this easily cured... well, not that it was EASY, but it's been two months now and it seems like she's on the right path..."

Peter Walsh NEVER answered this question except to gush about how fabulously motivated and insightful the woman is. No mention of the difference between HER and others, or any suggestion of how
challenging/impossible it is to address such a problem when the person has none of this motivation or insights.

This show is such a piece of garbage. I have never been that crazy about Oprah but this show makes me think that she is either 1) so perfectly happy to play the hero and be personal saviour to a family,
that she isn't concerned about spreading accurate information or 2) so removed from the research and production work in preparation for her show that she has NO IDEA just how misleading this show is.

Quote: " This show is such a piece of garbage. I have never been that crazy about Oprah but this show makes me think that she is either 1) so perfectly happy to play the hero and be personal saviour to a family, that she isn't concerned about spreading accurate information..."

I could not agree more. I had to stop watching and go on this site because I was so infuriated. This show was a pathetic excuse for Oprah to show some "ooh" and"aah" makeovers and continue the heartbreaking stereotype that hoarders are just people who like clutter and garbage with no real underlying psychological reasons. It's so agonizing. I'm watching this and now it's like oh wow, they have new furniture and new appliances so all their problems are gone! I couldn't believe Walsh's "mail system" for the husband.. it's just completely laughable. It doesn't really surprise me though, Oprah has always done things for ratings and for what the viewers like. And the viewers don't like to see the dirty truth in situations, they like home makeover shows with happy endings and shiny new dishwashers from Loews. Disgusting.
-moonriver

The last post about Oprah giving out new furnishings to the hoarded home brought back a memory for me. As a kid we always went in the summer to the local fair where they had a draw for a new fully furnished house. I always "prayed" and wished we would win. Not so much for the fancy